Do the pros use a flat serve ever?

Does anybody know the answer? I'm sure Ivo Karlovic has a flat serve, but what about more average sized pros (5'11" - 6'2")? Placing even the least bit of top spin on a serve creates a noticeable decrease in speed (especially during a heavy top spin or kick second serve).

Yes, but what most people call flat have some spin on them, since at 9.5 feet off the ground there is almost no straight angle to the service box.
This video kind of helps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe4MomUhq5k

Yeah not much room for error there, and Federer is about average height for a male pro. He is definitely coming up on the ball to some extent. Are you saying that particular serve would probably be considered flat? thanks for the video. :)

I'm saying most of Federers first serves are flat or slice. The same applies to most touring pros I think. I just wish someone could explain the spin on a flat serve as it's something that kind of baffles me. If it sounds like I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about it's because I learned this stuff from watching tennis on tv ;<

okay, i hear ya. that particular of serve of Feds is a mixture of a top spin and slice serve (probably 8 to 2) instead of 7 to 1 -or- a true kick serve of 6 to 12.

here's a great video from FYB explaining the kick serve:



You'll have to go through several of his videos to get the whole story. I actually learned the kick serve with some success through watching this video and a few others.

I learned spin serves from FYBs videos, and by hitting myself in the head with a lot of balls before I found the right contact point. This video in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg
I would say the third serve is "flat". The thing I like is you can see all the spins Federer puts on the ball, and tell how he does it by the angle of the racket at contact.

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Originally Posted by clock-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg
I would say the third serve is "flat". The thing I like is you can see all the spins Federer puts on the ball, and tell how he does it by the angle of the racket at contact.

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Great video. High rate of frames per second :D

That is absolutely as flat as they come. Federer would be a less likely person I'd expect to see a flat serve from. Good work finding that. So that settles my question :)

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Originally Posted by clock-

I learned spin serves from FYBs videos, and by hitting myself in the head with a lot of balls before I found the right contact point. This video in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg
I would say the third serve is "flat". The thing I like is you can see all the spins Federer puts on the ball, and tell how he does it by the angle of the racket at contact.

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Note in this clip of Roger serving how (especially in the 2nd and 4th example)
he hits across the ball from left to right, imparting topspin, and how high the ball kicks after the bounce on those serves.

You're right.. the guy has to reach above his head!

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Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

You're right.. the guy has to reach above his head!

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A most amazing tip: hit up on the serve. ?! Yes, up. You will note that when a club player hits a first serve into the net he will automatically hit up on the second serve to correct and be sure the next ball goes over the net. He probably doesn't know he's doing this, he just instinctively does it to get the ball over the net and in the service box. Watch and you will see this every time (unless he double faults - LOL). You can learn to use your triceps instead of your shoulder to drive the serve motion, which will impart more power and prevent injury.

A fantastic drill is to hit a bucket of balls over the fence from outside the court about 20 or more feet away. This forces you to hit up on the serve or the ball won't clear the fence. Then go on the court and start serving. You will be shocked to see that the ball lands in the box. I have used this drill with students from as young as 6 years old up to seniors. Players are shocked at how it works. It builds confidence. It proves that you must hit up on the serve (not down).

When you have gotten the feel of hitting over the fence from far away try standing close to the fence (within 10 feet or less) and see how close to the opposite side of the fence you can land the ball. Hit up and at contact move the racket from left to right. This drill teaches ultimate spin for a killer kick serve. You will laugh at your opponents screaming in frustration at this high-bouncing, top and sidespinning kicker. For this and other drills go to:
http://www.tennisteacher.org/Lucy/Fr...hapter%21.html

So how do you get them to fast enough that people can't stand back and tee off on them?

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Originally Posted by Tennis Angel

A most amazing tip: hit up on the serve. ?! Yes, up. You will note that when a club player hits a first serve into the net he will automatically hit up on the second serve to correct and be sure the next ball goes over the net. He probably doesn't know he's doing this, he just instinctively does it to get the ball over the net and in the service box. Watch and you will see this every time (unless he double faults - LOL). You can learn to use your triceps instead of your shoulder to drive the serve motion, which will impart more power and prevent injury.

A fantastic drill is to hit a bucket of balls over the fence from outside the court about 20 or more feet away. This forces you to hit up on the serve or the ball won't clear the fence. Then go on the court and start serving. You will be shocked to see that the ball lands in the box. I have used this drill with students from as young as 6 years old up to seniors. Players are shocked at how it works. It builds confidence. It proves that you must hit up on the serve (not down).

When you have gotten the feel of hitting over the fence from far away try standing close to the fence (within 10 feet or less) and see how close to the opposite side of the fence you can land the ball. Hit up and at contact move the racket from left to right. This drill teaches ultimate spin for a killer kick serve. You will laugh at your opponents screaming in frustration at this high-bouncing, top and sidespinning kicker. For this and other drills go to:
http://www.tennisteacher.org/Lucy/Fr...hapter%21.html

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Originally Posted by clock-

So how do you get them to fast enough that people can't stand back and tee off on them?

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I have a kick serve, but as clock mentioned, some people like to tee off on them. Until I can get some more depth on the serve, I will be using a top spin serve. Thanks for the tip TA. I will try that tomorrow. :)

The idea is to get the ball to bounce so that it kicks up and sideways; the receiver has to wait an eternity and even then it might take an unexpected turn and be way above his ideal strike zone, so he will be in a defensive, not offensive mode. He'll be lucky to get the ball in play, meanwhile, you're ready for his weak, defensive return.

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most amazing tip: hit up on the serve. ?! Yes, up. You will note that when a club player hits a first serve into the net he will automatically hit up on the second serve to correct and be sure the next ball goes over the net. He probably doesn't know he's doing this, he just instinctively does it to get the ball over the net and in the service box. Watch and you will see this every time (unless he double faults - LOL). You can learn to use your triceps instead of your shoulder to drive the serve motion, which will impart more power and prevent injury.

A fantastic drill is to hit a bucket of balls over the fence from outside the court about 20 or more feet away. This forces you to hit up on the serve or the ball won't clear the fence. Then go on the court and start serving. You will be shocked to see that the ball lands in the box. I have used this drill with students from as young as 6 years old up to seniors. Players are shocked at how it works. It builds confidence. It proves that you must hit up on the serve (not down).

When you have gotten the feel of hitting over the fence from far away try standing close to the fence (within 10 feet or less) and see how close to the opposite side of the fence you can land the ball. Hit up and at contact move the racket from left to right. This drill teaches ultimate spin for a killer kick serve. You will laugh at your opponents screaming in frustration at this high-bouncing, top and sidespinning kicker. For this and other drills go to:
http://www.tennisteacher.org/Lucy/Fr...hapter%21.html

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So when hitting a kick serve is it normal to keep the racquet face a bit closed?

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Originally Posted by Tennis Angel

A most amazing tip: hit up on the serve. ?! Yes, up. You will note that when a club player hits a first serve into the net he will automatically hit up on the second serve to correct and be sure the next ball goes over the net. He probably doesn't know he's doing this, he just instinctively does it to get the ball over the net and in the service box. Watch and you will see this every time (unless he double faults - LOL). You can learn to use your triceps instead of your shoulder to drive the serve motion, which will impart more power and prevent injury.

A fantastic drill is to hit a bucket of balls over the fence from outside the court about 20 or more feet away. This forces you to hit up on the serve or the ball won't clear the fence. Then go on the court and start serving. You will be shocked to see that the ball lands in the box. I have used this drill with students from as young as 6 years old up to seniors. Players are shocked at how it works. It builds confidence. It proves that you must hit up on the serve (not down).

When you have gotten the feel of hitting over the fence from far away try standing close to the fence (within 10 feet or less) and see how close to the opposite side of the fence you can land the ball. Hit up and at contact move the racket from left to right. This drill teaches ultimate spin for a killer kick serve. You will laugh at your opponents screaming in frustration at this high-bouncing, top and sidespinning kicker. For this and other drills go to:
http://www.tennisteacher.org/Lucy/Fr...hapter%21.html

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so i finally got the opportunity to try this out. first i must say it was fun. it didnt take long for me to adjust my serve to make it over the 10ft high fence. now i measured the distance from me to where my ball needed to drop for it to be a good (in the service box) serve. only once did it drop in the imaginary box aside from when i would take mega amounts of power off. i just couldnt get enough top spin on it. i was hitting up into the ball as best i could. any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by clock-

So when hitting a kick serve is it normal to keep the racquet face a bit closed?

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that seems right. atleast at some point it should be closed.

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Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

that seems right. atleast at some point it should be closed.

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http://www.tennisteacher.com/members...Chapter10.html

note that you hit up and address the ball with the edge of the racket - it will open up automatically at the last second as you hit from left to right. caution: when snapping the wrist it is meant to turn your hand from left to right with a snaping motion, NOT to snap your wrist forward and down. You can begin with your arm already behind your back; you can turn the top of your hand inward toward your ear, then hit up (with your triceps) and hit (snap) across from left to right. You can also practice this against the fence, describing the address of the edge toward the windscreen, then opening up as the racket hits the fence at the top of your arm extension, then tracing the face of the racket across and down until it turns in the opposite direction across your body. It's harder to describe in words than to see on the DVD, which makes it very easy to follow.

That pretty much explained everything, thanks.

Also remember... lots of pros can get a deadball effect with their first flat serves. They use a slight twists towards EBH from continental, pronate more, and the resulting fast moving ball gets a slight deadball, or knuckleball effect, to arc into the court even thos it's moving fast.

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Originally Posted by LeeD

Also remember... lots of pros can get a deadball effect with their first flat serves. They use a slight twists towards EBH from continental, pronate more, and the resulting fast moving ball gets a slight deadball, or knuckleball effect, to arc into the court even thos it's moving fast.

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interesting.. but are you sure?

It makes sense, the lines on the tennis ball would catch the air in a similar fashion to the strings on a baseball. Also it explains how the shorter guys can hit flat serves in consistently.

I hope we all didn't forget about gravity, which arcs the ball downward, and fuzz drag, which slows down the ball so gravity can take greater effect.
So, 5'11" and reach 7'4" off the ground. Gives about a 9' high strikezone at the baseline. I jump at least 10" (my heels) off the ground on first flats. I lean into the court at least 16", since that's where I toss my ball. Now do some math.
I also use conti grip with a slight favor towards EBH for first flat serves. That gives my flat serves a knuckleball or deadball effect, causing MORE arc and higher bounce.
Serves timed around 129 at my best (30 years ago), so maybe 115 now.
Then, usually around mid chest level for a player at the baseline.
Now, closer to belly button high bounces for a player at the baseline.
Then, about 45% in practice, closer to 30% in matches.
Now, about 45% in practice, closer to 25% in matches.
So I now employ more of an assortment of well placed tops, slices, twists, and kickers.

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Originally Posted by LeeD

I hope we all didn't forget about gravity, which arcs the ball downward, and fuzz drag, which slows down the ball so gravity can take greater effect.
So, 5'11" and reach 7'4" off the ground. Gives about a 9' high strikezone at the baseline. I jump at least 10" (my heels) off the ground on first flats. I lean into the court at least 16", since that's where I toss my ball. Now do some math.

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The only problem with relying on gravity is that the faster you hit it, gravity will have less time pulling the ball down. So Roddicks 150 mph flat serves don't get much help from gravity.. but just enough.

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Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

The only problem with relying on gravity is that the faster you hit it, gravity will have less time pulling the ball down. So Roddicks 150 mph flat serves don't get much help from gravity.. but just enough.

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Three years of playing on tour and coaching and hitting with numerous tour players, I have never seen a completely flat serve. Never. Sampras had a slight amount of spin on even is flattest serve. Spin creates control. As for whether you should work on that flat serve. Yes, but pronate the wrist and add some spin to it. I used to hit with Magnus Larrson who was a 6'5" tall Swedish pro and he never once hit a non-spinning serve. He nailed them too. It really is more about placement. Experiment with different spins on the serve to throw off your opponents timing. Besides, even with his 150 mph serve, when was the last time Roddick won a major? Nadal nor Federer are considered to be huge servers. They just place it well.

If you're the returner then, how to return?
If it spins very fast, and lands hard, how would you return?
I know the question is kind of basic, but obviously you have to try to break your opponent's serve.

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Originally Posted by tennisking1

Three years of playing on tour and coaching and hitting with numerous tour players, I have never seen a completely flat serve. Never. Sampras had a slight amount of spin on even is flattest serve. Spin creates control. As for whether you should work on that flat serve. Yes, but pronate the wrist and add some spin to it. I used to hit with Magnus Larrson who was a 6'5" tall Swedish pro and he never once hit a non-spinning serve. He nailed them too. It really is more about placement. Experiment with different spins on the serve to throw off your opponents timing. Besides, even with his 150 mph serve, when was the last time Roddick won a major? Nadal nor Federer are considered to be huge servers. They just place it well.

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which is exactly what i thought. a perfectly flat serve has such a small margin of error even for somebody 7' tall. These guys talking about knuckes balls may not know exactly what they're talking about. the difference between a pitcher pitching and a server serving - the pitcher holds and releases the ball exactly how he intended. a server on the other hand, must toss the ball which means he has less control.

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Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

which is exactly what i thought. a perfectly flat serve has such a small margin of error even for somebody 7' tall. These guys talking about knuckes balls may not know exactly what they're talking about. the difference between a pitcher pitching and a server serving - the pitcher holds and releases the ball exactly how he intended. a server on the other hand, must toss the ball which means he has less control.

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No way you are pronating your wrist totally and hitting a knuckleball. A continental grip will pronate and cause a natural spin to be imparted. Even if it is slight. My biggest serve speed was near 130 mph and that was just for a radar gun. I rarely tried to hit the ball that hard. It hurt my shoulder too much, and if my opponent got the ball back, I was usually stuck in no man's land trying to recover from my service motion. Placement is the key to a good serve. I use my kick serve as an extreme weapon. You just have to practice it. I usually can make a kick serve kick from one side of a player's body completely to the other side and keep it shoulder height or higher. Just took some practice. Realize that the kick serve is not a fast serve. If you must too much forward momentum into it, it will overpower the spin rotation and the ball will not really kick much. You have to see how much torque you can put on the ball. It's all about spin on the kicker, not speed.

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Originally Posted by tennisking1

No way you are pronating your wrist totally and hitting a knuckleball. A continental grip will pronate and cause a natural spin to be imparted. Even if it is slight. My biggest serve speed was near 130 mph and that was just for a radar gun. I rarely tried to hit the ball that hard. It hurt my shoulder too much, and if my opponent got the ball back, I was usually stuck in no man's land trying to recover from my service motion. Placement is the key to a good serve. I use my kick serve as an extreme weapon. You just have to practice it. I usually can make a kick serve kick from one side of a player's body completely to the other side and keep it shoulder height or higher. Just took some practice. Realize that the kick serve is not a fast serve. If you must too much forward momentum into it, it will overpower the spin rotation and the ball will not really kick much. You have to see how much torque you can put on the ball. It's all about spin on the kicker, not speed.

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TK I'm at a 3.5 level and use that kick serve you talk about all the time. Obviously, mine isn't near as pretty as yours, but because my opponents aren't at the pro level like yours my kick is very effective. Just a few days ago, i played a 4.0 level guy who simply could not handle the spin and kick of my serve. it was great.. they were just as good as an ace half the time. i was using second serves as my first half the time cause he just hated them.

so where have you been? did you have a good holiday?

So basically what people call a flat serve has some spin, but is hit fast and low over the net?

And that's pretty great LT, did you bounce any over his head?

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Originally Posted by 03White

If you're the returner then, how to return?
If it spins very fast, and lands hard, how would you return?
I know the question is kind of basic, but obviously you have to try to break your opponent's serve.

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The best way to return a topspin serve is probably to step back and wait for it to curve down a bit. If your timing is ridiculously good you can hit the ball on the rise before it gets too high.

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Originally Posted by clock-

And that's pretty great LT, did you bounce any over his head?

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a couple of them were up at his head, but he got to them. however, i did have one that curved into him and almost hit him :D

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Originally Posted by clock-

So basically what people call a flat serve has some spin, but is hit fast and low over the net?

And that's pretty great LT, did you bounce any over his head?



The best way to return a topspin serve is probably to step back and wait for it to curve down a bit. If your timing is ridiculously good you can hit the ball on the rise before it gets too high.

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Right. They have some spin, but they tend to move in a straight line. Slice serves and kick serves tend to spin in an arcing manner from the spin. Whether the arc goes side to side (the slice) or up and left or up and right. And usually, there is just a lot less spin on the "flatter" serves.

Hey LT, I have been in Hilton Head Island, S.C. and Charleston, S.C. interviewing for coaching jobs. I had an uneventful but good holiday. How was yours? I hit with a kid who is playing satellite tournaments and actually making through to the main draw through qualifying. He had absolutely no volleys. None. Nil. It blew my mind. I was a claycourt "specialist" when I played on tour, because it was easy on the body, but I darn well knew how to volley. This guy has been at some academy where they have been teaching him to run through his volleys without turning. I was left speechless. Looks like I have a new client. Anyway, congratulations on working your kick serve. Here's another thing for you on that stroke. Really turn your body on the beginning of the delivery and then rip up and around the ball. Swing hard, but really nick the ball with your strings. Most important: Big Turn.

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Originally Posted by tennisking1

Hey LT, I have been in Hilton Head Island, S.C. and Charleston, S.C. interviewing for coaching jobs. I had an uneventful but good holiday. How was yours? I hit with a kid who is playing satellite tournaments and actually making through to the main draw through qualifying. He had absolutely no volleys. None. Nil. It blew my mind. I was a claycourt "specialist" when I played on tour, because it was easy on the body, but I darn well knew how to volley. This guy has been at some academy where they have been teaching him to run through his volleys without turning. I was left speechless. Looks like I have a new client. Anyway, congratulations on working your kick serve. Here's another thing for you on that stroke. Really turn your body on the beginning of the delivery and then rip up and around the ball. Swing hard, but really nick the ball with your strings. Most important: Big Turn.

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If you keep at it, you will find a coaching career that you want. You enjoy teaching tennis so much it easily shows even through this forum. Just keep your head held high and believe that you can do anything you set your mind to.

That's a crazy story.. it sounds like he was trained to always volley in a 'swinging volley form' without the swing. One's short game in tennis determines whether they win the match or not. Ya know, have you been watching Davydenko recently? He has been unstoppable with short balls.. volleying like Rafter and eating up those short balls alive.

Thanks for the kick serve tip TK. Sometimes I notice my kick won't kick like it should, and that's probably cause my shoulders don't turn enough.

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Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis

If you keep at it, you will find a coaching career that you want. You enjoy teaching tennis so much it easily shows even through this forum. Just keep your head held high and believe that you can do anything you set your mind to.

That's a crazy story.. it sounds like he was trained to always volley in a 'swinging volley form' without the swing. One's short game in tennis determines whether they win the match or not. Ya know, have you been watching Davydenko recently? He has been unstoppable with short balls.. volleying like Rafter and eating up those short balls alive.

Thanks for the kick serve tip TK. Sometimes I notice my kick won't kick like it should, and that's probably cause my shoulders don't turn enough.

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That really is all there is to it. Really stretch your wrist and get it good and limber so that it can really snap up and around the ball. When practicing, try to see just how much spin you can put on the ball with your kicker. Same with your slice serve. Big turn on your serves. Thanks for the encouragement. Hopefully I will have good news soon.