How long does it approximately take to change a natural thing (that you have been doing for a few years), to another thing that you want to feel natural. Lets say you have this weak forehand with bad technique but it feels quite good cause you have been doing it for so long, and i change it to something that looks good, good technique and everything. How long does it take for the new forehand to become a natural thing?
- Erik
How long does it take to change a natural thing?
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03-27-2010, 03:55 PMErikHow long does it take to change a natural thing?
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03-28-2010, 03:37 AMmal-j
I am guessing it would depend on the person, their age, and the psychological way they went about it.
For me with things like serve it is very easy to change - maybe because you have time to think what you are going to do before you serve.
But I know one thing for certain: you can change your ground strokes to using another technique and it will work perfect in a practicing session but as soon as you play a match every ball you hit will either go out or in the net. Then you try to go back to your original techinque for the rest of the match and that doesn't work either. I have been there. -
03-28-2010, 05:51 AMErik
Well, how did you work it out? I guess it take a while to change a groundstroke, specially forehand. But how did you do?
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03-28-2010, 06:59 AMmal-j
What works best for me is to make gradual changes. I have seen too many coaches demoralise players by telling them to change too much too soon. You have someone hitting consistantly and they go for a lesson and the coach says "Oh no, it's all wrong. Hit further in front, hit further away from the body, follow through more, step into the ball" etc. Then the poor student tries to think of too many things at once and can't hit a ball and ends up feeling useless or confused - or both.
I changed from semi-western to eastern forehand (and I don't know if that is easier than going from eastern to SW) and it only took me a couple of weeks.
What I have done to change aspects of my groundstrokes is to use youtube a lot and look at several players techniques in slow motion and look at one thing at a time. I took it down to small things like what they did with the left leg when hitting the ball, what they did with the right leg, where the racket passed the face on the backswing, exactly what time did they start the split step beforehand, how high did they jump. That kind of thing. Then I added one minor detail each practice session and incorporated it into my own style. The main thing is that you might not be able do it exactly the same as them due to physical limitations and that isn't a problem. Each of the pros have their own style and so does each individual. But there are enough similarities to see things like they all follow through and they all swing their body into the shot.
There are some pros that have strokes or parts of the stroke that I can identify with, and take bits from different ones. I could never do a forehand like Monfils, for example but my follow through is similar, I can't do a leaping overhead smash like Sampras but my forehand has similar attributes and grip - but my backhand is a bit like Del Potro's (not as powerful though).
Hope this helps. -
03-28-2010, 03:40 PMErik
Cool Cool dude thanks for the tips. Fuzzyyellowballs site is really good, they are on youtube too. Anyways, i just recorded my own technique because i wanted to see what it looked like but now i just need to speed things down, do you know any program that i can do the videos in slowmotion?
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03-28-2010, 04:11 PMtennisking1The only system I know of is dartfish. As for your question, we change strokes all the time at the academy if there are serious issues with the technique. Take yourself out of competition and hit tons of fed balls until you have gotten the feel of the new stroke and you have confidence that you can hit it under pressure situations. Then, find a hitting partner and hit rally balls over and over on your forehand side. It may take a bit, but it will come.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
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03-28-2010, 08:01 PMclock-Put the video you want to slow down in windows movie maker then add the effect slow down half to the beginning of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
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03-28-2010, 08:37 PMpatrafnerWell it all depends the younger the better I would say. First thing to do you want to completely forget the bad habit by doing almost beginners drills then you will have to start pretty much over to build your new skill. Once you understand what to do it will become easier and easier and then it will become natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
I would say that with hard work you can change something in a couple months.
But do not forget if something is working good even with a bad technique it is sometimes useful to work with that. There is not a simple technique for any shot. -
03-29-2010, 04:48 AMErikHey Tk! I was thinking of that too, maybe i should stop with competition for a while if I'm changing something as it's alot of pressure on me when I'm playing tournaments (until i get the feeling for the hit). Oh and yeah, I'm downloading dartfish now!^^Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisking1
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03-29-2010, 05:59 AMErikI have windows 7 and for some reason they have removed the function to speed up and slow down clips :S.Quote:
Originally Posted by clock-
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03-29-2010, 11:31 AMLawn Tennis
you'll have to buy the rest of the program if you want all the functions to work.
as for how long it takes to become natural: i would guess on average a dedicated trainee could learn a shot to second-nature in a week. dedicated means on the court all seven days, six hours a day with a coach reinforcing. -
03-29-2010, 06:44 PMtennisking1Hey buddy. There is no time frame for someone to learn a stroke. Just go out and practice it and once you feel comfortable and confident, then that is the amount of time it will take you to learn it. There is no set rule. Stop the competition if you seriously want to change your stroke. Otherwise, you will lose all confidence and you will lose both strokes. Get me a video of your forehand and I will tell you what you need to do to improve it. Free of charge! (I normally charge $90 an hour for that!) Also, save your cash and come over here and train for a week with us! I just finished talking with a good friend of mine from Sweden (Rikard Bergh) who was top 10 on the ATP doubles tour and played 15 straight Wimbledons. I used to coach with him in Florida. He lives in the States now. Do you know of him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
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03-29-2010, 08:58 PM03White
I also suffer/suffered from this problem. My coach got me to start from the beginning, like practically from contact point, and we moved backward from there.
Muscle memory is pretty hard to change, and I guess if you play in competition, you'll panic and use the same undesired stroke.
Sometimes, even on the ball machines, and when I was trying to consiously change it, my body would just freak out and try to hit it the wrong way.
I think the Russians wouldn't let their kids play competition until after 2 years because of the same reason.
Good luck :) -
03-29-2010, 10:48 PMLawn TennisOk wait a minute! why does Erik get this free session? ;) jk. Seriously though, i should post a video of my forehand. it's a mess right now. i used to have a very good sem-closed to closed stance forehand. i switched to an open stance about six months ago and still have not found the same rhythm i once had. Erik, take TK up on his offer, so all of us can get some input from a former pro.Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisking1
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03-29-2010, 11:27 PMtennisking1Send it to me. Glad to work it out for you. When I get paid for coaching and lessons, it is very hands on. I show you exactly what will make you better. I don't mind giving some verbage for free at all. You guys need to get over here and work out with me for a weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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03-29-2010, 11:38 PMtennisking1It is probably in the loading stage that you are having issues. If you step out with your right foot (if you are right handed), the toe of your right foot should be pointed toward the fence. This will allow you to turn your hips and shoulders properly and load your weight onto that right leg. You will then drive the hips into the ball. Belly button finishes toward the target and the hand speed is high (accelerate into the ball). The hands come back together at the finish of the stroke (at least get them near each other as the free hand needs to be up and near the freehand's shoulder)and the racquet tip goes to your back for a full follow through. The key for you is probably the big shoulder and hip turn at the beginning and keeping your head still on contact. Loading the weight on that back/outside leg (right leg for right handed player) is all important. Remember that leg's toe placement as well....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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03-30-2010, 12:38 AMErikOkey!! Sounds awsome! I will! Thats kinda what i have been doing, trying to change it and in the same time play tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisking1
Hmm, i don't think i know that Rikard, never heard of him:S. Acctually my school is paying for my driver license so i will have cash over. I might come down in the summer, but i want to go to french open too and watch the pros playing, thats always been a dream.
Btw, how am i going to send the video? -
03-30-2010, 08:06 AMErik
Wowowowow! How much you learn when you are filming urself while playing. Brett i need to send you the videos so you can do something about my depressing forehand:D. Na, its not that bad but one thing i've seen now that i had no idea about was that the arm that i thought was straight in the contact zone isnt straight, its bent. Anyways you'll see when you get it. But do you want me to send one clip from each day, i started out 3 days ago, then you can see the different (if there are any lol).
I could zip them in a folder for you, but where do i send it? -
03-30-2010, 11:33 AMLawn TennisGreat feedback TK. I needed to hear all of that. I'm going to try this out tonight. The reason I believe you've nailed my problem: I've always had to make a conscious effort to turn my shoulders and hips. Now as long as I point my right foot at the fence, this should be no problem. I will let you know how it goes; thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisking1
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03-30-2010, 07:35 PMtennisking1Good luck. Use that same leg to push off into the ball.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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03-30-2010, 09:39 PMLawn Tennis
okay, i'm heading out after the federer berdych match.
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04-01-2010, 05:32 PMLawn Tennis
Came back here just to refresh myself on TK's forehand preperation tips. Placing the right foot parallel to the baseline is certainly something a little different from my natural foot placement in the open stance. I've hit some pro like forehands but mostly unforced errors. Loading the outside leg sure does help with balance.
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04-02-2010, 12:42 AMtennisking1Watch Mantilla's back foot on his forehand. HIs right foot. Watch him load his weight on it and then push into the ball while having his foot parallel to the baseline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLe4HBydsJY -
04-02-2010, 02:14 PMLawn Tennis
I see it; nice demonstration. That is one solid forehand. I'm guessing you hit with Mantilla at some point. Looked to be a good match as well. You know what would be the best TK - video of your forehand. Is there any footage on youtube of your game?.. or even just something you uploaded yourself?
btw, I'm starting to feel it. The hardest part for me now is preparing to early which results in misjudging the bounce. It's been windy lately which doesn't help. -
04-02-2010, 07:37 PMtennisking1I actually do have some video that this Italian female coach took of me. I will ask her for it. As for preparation, most people think you take the racquet back, but if you watch, it starts with a turn of the trunk area. The racquet is still in front of the chest with both hands, but the body is turned, so the racquet is automatically back! You use your feet to adjust to the ball. Then you start your swing. Just by being in ready position and turning starts the stroke out. Everything goes together as one. Watch the video again and see if you understand what I mean by the turn and how the hands stay together on the first part of the stroke. It will eventually make complete since........Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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04-02-2010, 08:37 PMLawn Tennis
Yes do that man. It's seems to make more sense when you're able to self-demonstrate. I guess cause you have the most understanding of your own game.
The remote racquet take back is a sign of amateur tennis. I'm working on that as well in particular during the return of serve. A tennis partner of mine told me yesterday that I need to stop changing my game. He said "just play tennis like I do; why worry about technique, practice is all you need". I told him how I felt like I needed form to progress much further and he disagreed. The bottom line is he will be left behind soon. I appreciate your assistance again TK. -
04-02-2010, 09:55 PMtennisking1
Continuously watch that forehand on youtube. You can have variations, but the principles are the same. Load the weight and keep the swing speed up. Your tennis partner will very much be left behind. We make sure that we have our juniors playing with good technique so that they can create a consistent, solid stroke. If it breaks down, they know what they need to do to get the stroke back. You need to work on hitting the same stroke over and over and making sure the footwork is taking you to the ball so that you can create the same stroke over and over. It really is about proper movement and technique. As you get better and better, it becomes second nature. That is when you start beating people like your partner in 20 minutes. Be patient and stick with it. Decide how you want to hit the ball and do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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04-03-2010, 08:44 PMLawn TennisWatch the video over and over till it's memorized like a favorite song, or basically eat tennis, sleep tennis, drink Coca-cola. :) Seriously, I do dream about tennis (not cause I'm addicted) but cause it really helps to always be visualizing proper form and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisking1
LOL -
04-04-2010, 11:15 PMLawn Tennis
I recorded some video of my forehand today. The bend at the elbow is far to great. I'm just getting to close to the ball and seems to be my preferred shot. Any suggestions as to how to extend my are out a little further? I think the rest of my shot is good aside from the part where you're to catch the racquet with your free arm upon completion of the follow-through.
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04-07-2010, 12:55 PMDaBouncer
[QUOTE]What works best for me is to make gradual changes. I have seen too many coaches demoralise players by telling them to change too much too soon. [/QUOTE]
Another way to change a stroke, or anything for that matter, is to exaggerate the new motion. I know that goes against what you said, but for some people it makes sense. It then makes the desired motion seem not so radical, as any change to a grooved stroke, even minor, feels like a really big deal. I got this from Dan Millman's book "The Inner Athlete" and use it with students with a lot of success. It seems to accelerate the learning process for some people. For instance, to get someone to use topspin, I have them stand at the baseline and try to hit the fence after one bounce in the court. Do I want them to hit every ball like this? No, but by exaggerating this one thing, it makes a normal topspin stroke much easier, relatively speaking, and it doesn't seem so radical.
I also like this method of teaching because it does away with all that micro-managing that was mentioned earlier, and just confuses the poor little brain! -
04-07-2010, 03:10 PMLawn Tennis
Welcome to the forum DaBouncer. :)
I have used the method you just described a few times with success. Oddly enough, the small changes method works as well for me. I think the best time to use the exaggerated method would be when the change is to something miniscule. -
04-07-2010, 09:01 PMtennisking1
This can be a great way to get a beginner to learn a new stroke. However, once one is in the upper levels, they will have to learn these minute details in order to be able to play up with better players. Most players only get demoralized when they are not taught the stroke properly and the coach doesn't fully understand how to get the point and stroke across to the player. The best way, by far, is to stop competitive play and work on the new stroke and then slowly bring it into a live ball situation and then into match play. It's all about feel when it comes to a stroke and when one is being competitive, feel is the last thing on the players mind. Lawn Tennis, make sure your contact point is out in front of you. Usually, when a player with a western or semi-western forehand starts having issues with too much bend, it is because the contact point is too much to the side. The follow through will be easier once your correct contact point is established.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBouncer
Another way to change a stroke, or anything for that matter, is to exaggerate the new motion. I know that goes against what you said, but for some people it makes sense. It then makes the desired motion seem not so radical, as any change to a grooved stroke, even minor, feels like a really big deal. I got this from Dan Millman's book "The Inner Athlete" and use it with students with a lot of success. It seems to accelerate the learning process for some people. For instance, to get someone to use topspin, I have them stand at the baseline and try to hit the fence after one bounce in the court. Do I want them to hit every ball like this? No, but by exaggerating this one thing, it makes a normal topspin stroke much easier, relatively speaking, and it doesn't seem so radical.
I also like this method of teaching because it does away with all that micro-managing that was mentioned earlier, and just confuses the poor little brain![/QUOTE] -
04-07-2010, 11:48 PMLawn Tennis
TK - make sure your contact point is out in front of you. Usually, when a player with a western or semi-western forehand starts having issues with too much bend, it is because the contact point is too much to the side. The follow through will be easier once your correct contact point is established.
wow that will be tough to change! my contact is only a little in front of me at best. do you suggest a completely straight arm? -
04-08-2010, 07:07 PMtennisking1No. There is a slight bend in the arm on contact, but it is slight. Not a big amount at all. Watch that video again and use the pause feature to get an idea......Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawn Tennis
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04-08-2010, 11:31 PMLawn Tennis
Okay cool. I actually won a match today against a legit 3.5 despite the transition. I will upload a video soon of my new forehand once I get some consistency with it. I always knew something was wrong. At times I felt like I was almost punching at the ball with my forehand! LOL :D
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04-13-2010, 01:29 PMSerenafan1I changed my Backhand technique and it took a bout 3 weeks of practice about 3x a week to assimilate the new form into my playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
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04-13-2010, 06:29 PMtennisking1
upload it for me so that I can see your contact point as well as your initial pivot and follow through. I will give you some suggestions (if any) to help you. The higher the level, the longer it takes to incorporate a new stroke. The reason is is that it takes better shots against better opponents and if you have an obvious weakness, a better opponent is going to really attack it and break it down. Then you have no confidence and then you start doubting yourself. Thus, the new stroke is either cast aside or you develop a hitch in it to compensate for your inability to hit it in a pressure situation. It then becomes a liability and everything goes to hell in a hand basket from there. So, if you plan on making a change, you really go out there and train it HARD until you are able to REALLY hit it while you are in a live ball situation. That is why it is good to work with a pro because it takes the competition out of the learning process and the pro keeps you hitting a correct stroke. And don't go to a pro that is going to tell you how great it looks when it looks bad. Find one that really makes you hit a solid, strong shot and doesn't just say good shot to everything.
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04-14-2010, 07:11 PMLawn Tennis
Okay, I will record the warm up of my next match and upload it on youtube. There will certainly be other things you see I do wrong. For instance, my free hand tends to remove itself from the shot at times, and it just plain looks mechanical. Give me a little time and I'll have it up here. Did you ever find the footage that lady took of you?
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04-17-2010, 09:29 PMtennisking1
I haven't seen her lately. It has been crazy for the last 3 weeks around here. Two weeks of spring break players coming in for training and then the Heritage golf tournament is going on right now as I type this. It has been looney around here. I should see her this upcoming week and see if she has that video still. If not, I will ask her to redo the video and I will upload it.......I also may get her to do the backhand as well.......
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04-18-2010, 11:25 AMLawn Tennis
Plus you had the WTA event in Charleston. You know you're only problem with re-recording yourself - you need to find somebody who can handle the pace of your groundies. Of course, you could always just have somebody feed you balls.
